*Note: contains opinions about Adult Situations, be warned, read at your own risk.
I am a pretty heartless person. I tend to tackle any problem with an attitude of, 'it isn't that bad.' If someone else is struggling with an issue, especially if it's something I have experienced myself, that's when I really have to battle the natural urge to roll my eyes and tell them to suck it up, that they aren't the only human being to go through whatever trial they are facing, and that ultimately it is for their good and God's Glory.
Not very loving, which I am recognizing and praying that The Holy Spirit changes me in this regard. There's hope for me yet people.
I was contemplating the difference between 'Lust' and 'Love', sparked from a conversation I recently had with another adult. My kids are too young to really get into any details about their bodies, and how babies are made and all that but I am sure the time will be coming where my oldest will start asking questions. This doesn't bother me for the most part, I'm pretty comfortable with discussing sex, and all that comes with that, but I can foresee the discomfort of my eldest as he starts growing and maturing into a man. He's very private, not sure where that came from but it's good and fine and God has already equipped me to deal with him, I just need prayer and wisdom to guide me in this. Like everything else. See the pattern? And since we're onto the subject of patterns, I made a comparison chart from the Websters online dictionary comparing Lust and Love. Look at the made-made definitions closely:
Definition of LUST 1 2 : usu. intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness 3 a : an intense longing : craving <a lust to succeed> b : enthusiasm, eagerness <admired his lust for life> | Definition of LOVE 1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates> b : an assurance of affection <give her my love> 2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea> 3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love> b (1) : a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2) British —used as an informal term of address 4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration for God. |
Now, in my opinion, lust is selfishly motivated, whereas love is others centered. However, the sexual act of two human beings being together is the same deed whether in love or in lust. Why do I think this?
When I was a young woman, just beginning to bud and realizing the attentions of men were short lived and useless, I grasped onto the biblical concept that being a virgin before marriage was of the utmost importance because then my husband would know just how MUCH *I* loved him...because *I* waited for him. My virginity would be a trophy, a prize, a gift for him and him alone. This fit in nicely with my pride, the knowledge that *I* was in control of >my life<. That was short-lived, and as I grappled with the sin I had committed, not understanding how I could enjoy something so much that was so wrong and against everything I stood for, well, it caused great turmoil and humbling on my part to realize I am only human. The desires and needs I was experiencing where so natural, part of my very nature, that I was helpless to fight them on my own.
God designed us. He created man to copulate, but that didn't come into effect until after sin was introduced into the world. He set boundaries that man was to fill his urges within the context of a marriage. Why? Well look around. Look at all the broken relationships, the lies, the cheating, the stealing of hearts and future plans and goals, the murder of life as a result of intercourse. Look at what humans are capable of doing when they are left to themselves! Without God, without the knowledge of His grace in our lives, we are completely capable of bouncing to one relationship to the next, and it becomes about our own needs and desires. We turn inward. We become the rulers of our destiny. We buy into the hype, "if it feels good, do it!" Or, "If I don't do this until I'm married, then I'm showing my capability to rule my life and obey Gods word."
Some will think, 'How dare I say that sex in a marriage is the same as sex with a random stranger!!' All I am saying is that the performance is the same. The feelings behind the action may be different...usually those who claim to love ensure the other is as satisfied as they are, but coming together as individuals and relieving the body's essential needs is the same whether you're married or not. It's a fleshy worldly thing. Nothing wrong with it. In fact, it's one of those pleasures that by Gods grace can be fully enjoyed, even glorifying to the One who designed it if kept in the boundaries the Creator has set. Sex is how babies are made, but it is also a way for humans to release accumulating biological hormones...in other words, lust.
In the Garden of Eden, when God said everything was good, there was only Adam and Eve. They knew not nakedness, therefore, they were certainly not making love. Their marriage was built upon a perfect relationship with God, they truly were a part of one another, since Eve was literally taken from Adams body. They had the intimacy we can only dream about, and it wasn't physical. But, once the apple was eaten, and the relationship was severed between God and man, God clearly set the covenant of marriage as being between one man, one woman and that they were to remain together for life, being fruitful and multiplying and enjoying one another as they aged, thus allowing for the desires Adam and Eve had for one another once they noticed their bodies to be satisfied.
This opinion, which I have had for years, has caused huge heartache for those who cling to their own works of righteousness, instead of embracing their need for forgiveness from a beautiful Saviour. By stating the fact that there is no difference between lust and love in the physical act of genital relations, I am sure I have offended people who's children are then a product of this lust, since the act of consummation is a result from lusting after ones partner. Trying to justify conceiving children on a 'undefiled' marriage bed is claiming to not need a Saviour. If anything we do is anything other than filth, the gospel is tarnished.
I know the children The Lord has blessed me with is a result of my human lust, AND love that my husband and I share for one another. Maybe this is easy to understand for me because I've been with another man, and as a result I conceived a child on a 'bed of defilement.' However, there is no difference to the nature of the child conceived in wedlock and conceived outside of marriage. They are still sinful, unregenrate human beings that need prayer, love, guideance and healthy teachings of who God is, who we are, and our need for the Gospel. There is no distinction.
If my Spouse were to die, I'd be foolish to think I could live without sex so re-marriage would have to happen, if that's the Lord's Will. Husband is clearly uncomfortable when I talk about the situation if I were to die, but I have no fantasy that 'I'm the only girl for him'. Needs must be met, but in the marriage relationship only. Appreciating this weakness about myself, I have strength realizing Christ has won this fleshly battle for me if it was something in the future I must face.
So while I have my Man, I'm going to enjoy him immensely, and not feel the least bit guilty about it.
Lust is NOT love.
ReplyDeleteIt is LASCIVIOUS - self-centered, wanton desire:
He was arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior.
Origin of LASCIVIOUS
Middle English, from Late Latin lasciviosus, from Latin lascivia wantonness, from lascivus wanton — more at lust
First Known Use: 15th century
Related to LASCIVIOUS
Synonyms: bawdy, blue, coarse, crude, dirty, filthy, foul, gross, gutter, impure, indecent, obscene, lewd, locker-room, nasty, pornographic, porny, profane, raunchy, ribald, smutty, stag, trashy, unprintable, vulgar, wanton, X-rated.
1828 Definition
LUST, n.
1. Longing desire; eagerness to possess or enjoy; as the lust of gain.
My lust shall be satisfied upon them. Ex. 15.
2. Concupiscence; carnal appetite; unlawful desire of carnal pleasure. Romans 1. 2Peter 2.
3. Evil propensity; depraved affections and desires. James 1. Ps. 81.
4. Vigor; active power. [Not used.]
LUST, v.i.
1. To desire eagerly; to long; with after.
Thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Deut. 12.
2. To have carnal desire; to desire eagerly the gratification of carnal appetite.
Lust not after her beauty in thy heart. Prov. 6.
Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her,hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matt. 5.
3. To have irregular or inordinate desires.
The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy. James 4.
Lust not after evil things as they also lusted. 1Cor. 10.
4. To list; to like.
1913 Definition
Lust (lust)
n. (?)
Lust
[AS. lust, lust, pleasure, longing; akin to OS., D., G., *** Sw. lust, Dan. & Icel. lyst, Goth lustus, and perh. tom Skr. lush to desire, or to E. loose. Cf. List to please, Listless.
Pleasure.
[Obs.] " Lust and jollity." Chaucer.
Inclination] desire.
[Obs.]
For little lust had she to talk of aught. Spenser.
My lust to devotion is little. Bp. Hall.
Longing desire; eagerness to possess or enjoy; -- in a had sense; as, the lust of gain.
The lust of reigning. Milton.
Licentious craving; sexual appetite.
Milton.
Hence: Virility; vigor; active power.
[Obs.] Bacon.
To list] to like.
[Obs.] Chaucer. " Do so if thou lust. " Latimer.
* In earlier usage lust was impersonal.
In the water vessel he it cast
When that him luste. Chaucer.
To have an eager, passionate, and especially an inordinate or sinful desire, as for the gratification of the sexual appetite or of covetousness; -- often with after.
Whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Deut. xii. 15.
Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matt. v. 28.
The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy. James iv. 5.
Genesis 1:28 (Before the Fall) Then God blesses them, and God said to them, "BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over living thing that moves on the earth."
ReplyDeleteSeems hard to imagine how they would be fruitful and multiply without sexual intercourse. Just because Eve didn't conceive till after the Fall, does not necessarily mean they did not engage in intercourse.
The Bible does not say they "Didn't know nakedness". It says they were naked and not ashamed.
Whenever the Bible speaks about Lust, it is referred to as a sin. Lust is sinful. It is wrong. Job 31:11-12 (NLT) "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own."
You are trying to claim that sex = lust, even between married people. Well, the Bible says that lust is a sin. Therefore, if you follow that thought logically, married people are sinning every time they engage in sexual intimacy. And yet the Bible also talks about how marvelous and good sexual relations between man and wife are: Prov. 5:15-19, 1 Cor. 7:2, and of course Song of Solomon.
What you are claiming does not, in fact, line up to what the Bible says.
Genesis 4:1- NOW Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived. Knowing ones wife in the bible was how they said they had sex, just in case you missed that. This was after the fall. No one word is mentioned about Adam knowing Eve before chapter four.
DeleteWhat I am claiming is that there are no distinctions, *whatever* we do is sinful, no matter what relationship we are in. If we can claim something we do is 'holy' then at that moment we don't need Christ. As soon as we give ourselves credit, we lose sight of the Cross, and are basing our righteousness on our own works.
ReplyDeleteThat is precisely what the Bible warns us about.
How do you understand the concept of dying to self? What do you make of:
ReplyDeleteFor through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
(Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20-21 ESV)
We are called to serve God without fear. Yes, everything we do is tainted, but it is also forgiven because of the finished work of Christ - Hebrews 10.
1 Peter 1:15
but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1 Peter 1:16
since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
1 Peter 2:5
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
If we are filled with the Spirit and living by faith, things we do are acceptable BECAUSE OF JESUS.
So, marital intimacy can be a holy union, sanctified and acceptable to God.
Fornication cannot ever be a holy union, because it is a violation of God's command.
Since marital intimacy is fornication, except done within the context The Lord had established, I see no reason why the pleasure shouldn't be enjoyed by both parties. By what you are trying to defend, a homosexual relationship is therefore holy because they are doing the deed within a marriage. We must be careful to not elevate anything we do.
ReplyDeleteRae, I think you have misunderstood the word fornication. It is not just a big word for sex, rather is it sex between unmarried partners.
DeleteThis comment is no longer relevant and has lead you down an incorrect path. I hope everyone can forgive your mistake and not dwell on this.
Next you have gone off track with the homosexual comment. You have used an incorrect definition of marriage. Logically man cannot redefine what God has created (marriage). If you use the term marriage, make sure you use it as it was originally defined.
Yes, you are correct. My response in this case was pure emotion, I really should think about what I write carefully.
DeleteThanks!
I never claimed that sex within marriage is Holy. Do you realize that you are arguing the fact that there is no difference between sex within a marriage and illicit casual sex? Give your head a shake.
ReplyDeleteSex within a marriage was created by God, as a gift. And He called it good. There's a whole book in His Book that celebrates the sexual relationship within marriage. How can you conceivably claim that sex only comes from lust? Lust is a SIN. That is made clear in the Bible. Crystal clear, in fact. Why would God call something that comes from sin good? Makes no sense.
Are you confusing Lust with Desire? Sexual desire for your spouse is good..... The Bible says so.
Here's some definitions. These e-mails have just happened to come to my inbox lately. Have a look:
Sex with Lust:
So what is lust? Simply enough, “Lust is craving sexually what God has forbidden.” While sexual desire is good and natural, and given by God, lust is a perversion of what is good and right. “Lust goes beyond attraction, and appreciation of beauty, or even a healthy desire for sex—it makes these desires more important than God. Lust wants to go outside God’s guidelines to find satisfaction.” While lust is a problem that is as old as the human race, we live in a time when it is funnelled to us in ever-increasing measure. It is increasingly difficult to live pure and undefiled in our sex-saturated culture. And yet God’s standard remains the same: He demands perfection. “God calls us to the daunting standard of not even a hint.” The fact that this standard seems impossible is merely proof that man-centered solutions must fail. “Only the victory of Christ’s death and resurrection can provide the right power and the right motive needed to change me.” We must be motivated by God’s grace and empowered by the Spirit if we are to defeat lust.
Heather, You have misinterpreted what Rachel said. Rachel states that the emotions, desires and feelings which when acted upon produce the act of sex are the same whether the partners are married or not.
DeleteLust and desire are synonyms. Both can be applied to sex as well as other things. Where exactly is the verse that says sexual desire for your spouse is good?
Just a caution, be careful of stuff that comes to your inbox, that excerpt has made many claims that do not square with scripture. This excerpt states a false distinction between sexual desire and lust (where in the Bible is this?) Then this excerpt claims it is increasingly difficult to live pure and undefiled, so it is possible? This is screaming Judaism, a works based religion. We can do it if we try harder and not give into our culture. It is my understanding that we are not pure, even virgins have thought about sex, probably even read about it so they know how to do it, therefore we are not pure, and thus in need of a Saviour. Lust is not a battle we need to defeat, Christ has already done it.
I would be skeptical of the source of this except, I see a man furthering his own agenda while incorporating enough near truths to make it appear correct.
Sex with Love:
ReplyDeleteSex, Romance, and the Glory of God is based loosely on the Song of Solomon. C.J. Mahaney shares my understanding of this book of the Bible stating simply, “It’s about sex” (page 9). While many have attempted to allegorize Solomon’s song, few have succeeded with any degree of credibility. “That’s right gentlemen.” says Mahaney, “Solomon’s Song of Songs is an entire book of the Bible devoted to the promotion of sexual intimacy within the covenant of marriage. It’s an eight-chapter feast of unbridled, uninhibited, joyous immersion in verbal and physical expressions of passion between a man and a woman” (page 10). Amen. So as the reader prepares to read this book, he must prepare to celebrate God’s gift of sex. The author says, “The purpose of the book you hold in your hands is to lead us back into God’s ideal of joyful, unashamed, indulgent, loving sexuality in the context of marriage” (pages 14-15). This book is directed primarily to men, largely because it is the husband’s role (not an author’s) to lead his wife into a fuller understanding of what Scripture teaches about sexuality. Mahaney will provide the foundation men can build upon to discover with his wife how sex and romance can be done to the glory of God.
The union of man and wife is a reflection of the Union between Christ and His church. How could one part of that intimacy be considered less than perfect? (Although, because we're human, it often is. But only because of sin.)
But it definitely does not reduce it to the status of illicit sex. Scratch that. You're not saying it's less than perfect, you're saying it's a SIN. How do you reconcile that opinion with the Bible?
Nobody is trying to elevate anything. But the idea that sex within a marriage is a sin, is wrong. It just is.
You stated you will enjoy your husband and not be guilty. Well, duh. Of course you should. God tells you to.
Trying to say that our argument sanctions gay marriage is ridiculous. 'Cause the Bible clearly states that homosexual relations is wrong.
Nobody is elevating anything.
Your statement "Needs must be met" in relationship to sex is also unbiblical. Food is a need. Without it you die. Oxygen is a need, cause without it you face the same result.
Sex is NOT a need. Without it you will live. It may take a lot of self control to abstain from your fleshly desires, but it IS possible, with God. You will not die. In fact, didn't Paul advise his followers to be single? But if they could not CONTROL themselves, they were to marry?
I feel like you are defending this ridiculous stance because of some other issue.
You are not being judged. Your son is not being judged. How hypocritical do you suppose your sisters to be? We both engaged in the same sin as you, only we didn't conceive a child. (Although, if you remember, I was pregnant when I got married.) It is ludicrous to me that you could even THINK that we value your child less because he was not conceived within a marriage. We believe fully and completely in the sovereignty of God. That means that we believe that God chose to bless you with a child. It does not matter how he came to be. He is just as valued as any other child.
So stop this ridiculous argument. You can not back it up Biblically.
Wow, it appears that this post has stirred feeling within people so strong that they must create their own issue and then argue that.
ReplyDeleteWhat in this post, exactly do you disagree with. Please make sure you limit it to the original post and not someone's comments.
Rae eliminates several false distinctions, let me try to state them here;
1. Lust is sinful
2. Lust leads to people having sex
3. The physical act of sex is the same
4. Nothing we do is Holy, we are fallen in sin
5. Marriage does not make sex Holy
Now to address some of the other false distinctions which I feel I must comment on.
ReplyDeleteJanet,
You stated in the first post that Lust was not Love. I do not think Rae ever meant to claimed this. This minor error(she didn't complete that sentence properly) should not discredit the rest of her message. The entire post should be considered, not one single part sentence. Rae also never claimed that Sex was Love either. Rae did claim that the desires that causes us to lust are the same regardless of the object of our lust.
Next, I am curious about this statement
*If we are filled with the Spirit and living by faith, things we do are acceptable BECAUSE OF JESUS.*
could you explain this, I think you are missing the ending to that sentence. Should it not read "BECAUSE JESUS SUFFERED AND ACCEPTED THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT FOR ALL OF OUR ACTIONS"
Heather, you posted this
*The union of man and wife is a reflection of the Union between Christ and His church.*
I believe you are confusing a General Principle with particular expressions or examples of this.
Marriage is a type of relationship expressed from the Perfect union of Christ and the church. There are all sorts of bad marriages, cultural differences, and personal characteristics which are still part of marriage, but not direct reflections of Christ and his church.
Next
*How could one part of that intimacy be considered less than perfect? (Although, because we're human, it often is. But only because of sin.)*
This does not make sense. You ask how then state that it often is. Make up your mind, are you asking How or telling that it is.
Finally;
*But it definitely does not reduce it to the status of illicit sex. Scratch that. You're not saying it's less than perfect, you're saying it's a SIN. How do you reconcile that opinion with the Bible?*
Here you are stating things which Rae is not. You have not stated what is less than perfect or what Rae is calling Sin. You make a statement attacking what Rae said, but fail to mention that original statement. Was is (Sex, Marriage, Lust, Love, Desire, Holiness, God, the physical act of sex, the emotional confusion surrounding sex, the incorrect teaching that marriage makes sex Holy) do you see how you confused and already touchy subject. If you wish to attack, debate, refute a comment or idea, you must state the idea so we can know what on Earth you are talking about.
"Lust and desire are synonyms. Both can be applied to sex as well as other things. Where exactly is the verse that says sexual desire for your spouse is good?"
ReplyDeleteHere are the scripture proofs:
First I will cite scripture that talks about DESIRE for a spouse as good:
Song of Solomon 7:10 "I belong to my lover, and his DESIRE is for me."
This is a good desire. A husband SHOULD desire his wife, and vice versa.
I believe I already stated these scripture proofs, but in case they weren't acknowledged, here they are again:
Prov. 5:18 "May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth."
How does a man rejoice "re·joice
verb (used without object)
to be glad; take delight (often followed by in ): to rejoice in another's happiness." (sounds sexual to me) in a wife he's not physically intimate with?
Deut.24:5 "If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married."
Sounds like he is to cement the relationship. Sans sex? Can you with a clear conscious make that decision?
(Proverbs 5:15-19) "Drink water from your own well—share your love only with your wife. Why spill the water of your springs in public, having sex with just anyone? You should reserve it for yourselves. Don't share it with strangers. Let your wife be a fountain of blessing for you. Rejoice in the wife of your youth. She is a loving doe, a graceful deer. Let her breasts satisfy you always. May you always be captivated by her love."
"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous." - Hebrews 13:4
^Ahhhh. The "gotcha" verse. Sex in marriage and sex without marriage is clearly defined......
Desire and lust ARE NOT SYNONYMS. I would humbly request you ask your pastor about this. Please.
"Lust is not a battle we need to defeat, Christ has already done it." I can direct quote you to refute this statement.
Turning this discussion into a works vs grace debate is ludicrous.
Yes, everything we do is as filthy rags. Absolutely nothing WE can do will get us into heaven.
Stating that sex within marriage is good is not furthering mans agenda. It's restating what the Bible says.
Let's move on.
"Rae eliminates several false distinctions, let me try to state them here;
1. Lust is sinful: True.
2. Lust leads to people having sex: False. Not only Lust. Love, biblical desire does too.
3. The physical act of sex is the same. False. The actions, maybe. The reason behind it, no.
4. Nothing we do is Holy, we are fallen in sin: True.
5. Marriage does not make sex Holy: As far as I know, no one claimed this.
Here is the distinction: Illicit sex does NOT equal sex within a marriage.
Period.
Full stop.
Do not pass go, do not collect $100.
If you are arguing ONLY against the physical act, ie what is explicitly done, than no. The physical act is not different. Morally, there is a HUGE, galaxies apart difference.
And it bothers me greatly you do not see that. Is sex just an animalistic act for you? The whole caveman, "Grunt means I want it!" thing?
May I suggest reaching out to your pastor, and maybe others, to redefine your idea of sex and marriage? Because it sure seems to me you do not have a high opinion of sex within marriage at all.
Check it out.
If I was totally off base with my projections on the motive behind this debate, I apologize. Still thought that my thoughts on that subject should be made known. Sorry for being transparent and honest. I will know not to do that in the future, lest I be accused of
making my own issues......
If you want to respond, respond with Bible verses. Then I know it's not your own perceived injustices coming through.
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then theLord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in1 man forever, afor he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim2 were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.5 bThe Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every cintention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And dthe Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it egrieved him in his heart.
DeleteThis is from Gen 6. Are you suggesting mans heart has somehow changed? That man no longer finds the opposite sex pleasing to the eye? EVERY INTENTION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. This pattern has not changed, else we don't need Christ. I applaud your determination and request for scriptrual truth. We must be careful not to use bits and pieces of the bible to fit in with our own understanding, but to read the entire bible and keep to the general concept.
God is Holy.
God requires Man to be Holy.
Man can not be Holy, but can only sin continually.
Christ Jesus became man, remaining holy to reconcile those few God predestened as the Elect back to God.
That is the gospel. No where in our lives are we ever holy.
Just Forgiven.
Before you dig your heals into your own beliefs (might be too late), here is something to consider.
ReplyDeleteIf we accept that God has us in progress (What He has started He shall surely bring to completion) then we must be willing to let go of old ideas and move when new truths are presented.
Maybe God uses people that you wouldn't to express truths that you have not developed.
Remember, God does All according to His perfect plan, not man doing it according to his personal desires.
*If we are filled with the Spirit and living by faith, things we do are acceptable BECAUSE OF JESUS.*
ReplyDeleteMike, your curiosity can be satisfied by looking at my post.
For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
(Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20-21 ESV)
We are called to serve God without fear. Yes, everything we do is tainted, but it is also forgiven because of the finished work of Christ - Hebrews 10.
1 Peter 1:15
but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1 Peter 1:16
since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
1 Peter 2:5
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
See what I have bolded. We are only acceptable in anything we do or say or are, BECAUSE OF JESUS and His finished work on the cross.
Where did I say we were holy? Where did I say sex was holy?
ReplyDeleteAnd again. When God created Adam and Eve, and placed them in the Garden, He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. How were they going to do that without having sex? Just because it doesn't explicitly say that Adam "knew" Eve, it's assuming a lot to say they didn't have sex till after the Fall.
The Bible also does not mention the fact that Jesus went to the bathroom. But, since He was fully man, we can safely assume that He did.
"What do you disagree with, why do you disagree? You are the problem, you don't even know what you are bothered by. If it is something from your past, leave it there. If it is something from this blog, then your comments should be more specific."
I'm sorry. I thought I was specific. Sex within marriage is NOT a sin. Sex does NOT come only from lust.
Specific enough?
I'm done here. I will sit back and wait, and like every other discussion we have, eventually your Church will teach on this subject, and then all the sudden you will be trying to teach me how sex within marriage is not a sin, but a good and wonderful gift from God.
It's hilarious to me that you said "We must be careful not to use bits and pieces of the bible to fit in with our own understanding, but to read the entire bible and keep to the general concept." when you are the ones with the tunnel vision. Or blinders. You only ever see the subject from the perspective of what you are learning in Church. I can bet that right now you are studying the depravity of man. I'll bet a million dollars. And therefore, that taints everything you think about.
I would encourage you to read our blog, or better yet come to a few services. Then you can make an informed decision on what I am being taught from the pulpit.
DeleteDo you believe love to be an emotion?
Also, my tablet won't allow me to correct mistakes, and for some reason Mike's computer isn't working so I would like to clarify a sentence from the second last large paragraph, which I think is what you have grasped onto Heather.
****
This opinion, which I have had for years, has caused huge heartache for those who cling to their own works of righteousness, instead of embracing their need for forgiveness from a beautiful Saviour. By stating the fact that there is no difference between lust and love in the physical act of genital relations, I am sure I have offended people who's children are then a product of this lust, since the act of consummation is a result from lusting after ones partner. Trying to justify conceiving children on a 'undefiled' marriage bed is claiming to not need a Saviour. If anything we do is anything other than filth, the gospel is tarnished.
***
Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
ReplyDeletethat each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8.
Lust and Love are not equal, one is impurity the other is holiness, and we are called to be Holy.
We are callled to be holy, but can we actually be holy in anything we do?
Delete1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God— that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
DeleteWe can be holy, not of our own power, but in Christ.
Colossians 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
You are so right to post these verses, in the context of how GOD sees us, as the finished product, in Heaven, with Him. He sees the Lamb, and the flesh reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ. we being in Christ Jesus as the Elect are now suitable to be in the presence of The Holy of Holies.
DeleteIt seems everyone has forgotten 1 Corinthians 7. Please read it carefully.
I also want you to consider these verses:
1Cor 7:5 (NIV) Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
What did Paul mean here? Did he mean that only these particular people had lack of self control, or can this apply to every single human being?
Also:
1 Corinthians 15
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, h“The first man Adam became a living being”;5 ithe last Adam became a jlife-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 kThe first man was from the earth, la man of dust; mthe second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, nso also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall6 also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and wthis mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
x“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 y“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and zthe power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, awho gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 bTherefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in cthe work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
So you see, sex, as the **worldly fleshly human thing** is perishable, dishonourable, it has no place in Heaven, nor near holiness. We are forgiven for all sin through Christ Jesus, and our salvation is secure in knowing that 'while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.'
We are still human. Even after conversion. We will still die. But that is our victory that after death we are HOME!!
"So you see, sex, as the **worldly fleshly human thing** is perishable, dishonourable, it has no place in Heaven, nor near holiness. We are forgiven for all sin through Christ Jesus, and our salvation is secure in knowing that 'while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.' "
DeleteWhen I read your comments, Rachel, I am reminded more of gnosticism than I am of Christianity. I don't intend to hurt you with that comment, but I am being honest.
Gnostics believe that the flesh is bad and only the spirit is good.
The Bible says that the marriage bed is undefiled. How is that not enough for you?
Hebrews 13:4 Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.
It is not immoral to have sex with one's spouse.
Also, 1 Corinthians 15 has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the resurrection. You are misapplying it in your argument.
The passages I shared have everything to do with what is Spiritual, Holy, Heavenly....sex is not any of those. Did I imply in my blog that sex within marriage is wrong? No. I implied EVERYTHING WE DO is sinful. God put barriers on sexual relations because of sin. Paul said it is better for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman...
Deleteetc....
Let me ask you this:
WHY was Jesus Christ not conceived within or on the marriage bed, but conceived BEFORE the marriage of Mary and Joseph? Why was a virgin so important? Why was Joseph not allowed to have sex with Mary until Jesus was born?
And don't worry about my feelings Sarah, they heal if hurt. :-)
I will not take your advice, I will worry about your feelings because I want to be kind to you even if we disagree.
DeleteWhich we do. Sex is not heavenly, as in we will not be having sex in heaven, but within the boundaries God has set it can be holy and it is indeed spiritual. Sex is not merely physical, otherwise we would be like the animals, mating merely for procreation. God intended something better and more profound for mankind.
Paul had many opinions on sex (more to do with singleness, that it is better to be single), but he even mentions that it is HIS opinion, not God's.
As for the virgin birth, it was a miraculous event to display the awesome power of God. It was not because "eww sex is dirty!" to hold such a position is laughable! The Bible does not contradict itself. God proclaims sex in marriage to be good.
Also, the Bible never says that Joseph was not allowed to have sex with Mary. It says he didn't until Jesus was born. Why? That is a good question, to which there are many possible answers. Reverence? Fear? Erectile dysfunction? Who knows! Not you, and not me.
It does not, however, mean that it would have been WRONG for him to have sexual relations with his wife. Nothing of the kind is mentioned by the angel, or by Mary, or by God ANYWHERE. It just isn't in the Bible. To base your belief that sex is dirty and sinful on that idea is simply, wrong. Especially because the Bible repeatedly speaks of how sex in marriage is a gift, a good thing from God. The Bible does not contradict itself.
I hope that someday you will have a better opinion of marital relations, but you are free to believe what you will. I may disagree with you, but I do love you and I hope the best for you.
I know you love me, your actions prove this, not responding to this blog but supporting me in real life. :-) Although, don't get me wrong, I am delighted with the responses because this issue needs to be talked about. Whether we are in agreement about anything is irrelevant. Me sharing my opinion is not a sneaky way for me to try to change anyone's mind. That is not my job. I just felt compelled to put this wrong veiw of sexual relations out there.....as in making distinctions about the flesh that just isn't correct. Like Heather, I applaud your resolve.
DeleteI love sex. Period. I am thankful for my husband. Period. When we enjoy each other it doesn't become something else. Have you forgotten we did the snip snip, so our sex life is ONLY for pleasure?
Yes, sex is a gift from God, it is wonderful for those of us who enter into marriage because we can't control ourselves.
1Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."
ReplyDeleteAnd to answer your question, no. We never measure up. That is why Christ had to die. But the wonderful thing is, that GOD looks at us through the blood of Christ, and sees us as Holy.
The logical conclusion to your (Rachel, not Rae, but your actual name) statement, is that I can murder the people that piss me off. Yes, the Bible says, "Though shalt not kill," but we can't measure up anyways, right? And if we put that kind of pressure on ourselves, we're taking away what Christ did on the cross.
So. According to your theology, if someone pisses me off, I can kill them. If I find a REALLY sexy man, I can sleep with him, whether married or not. If I can stay out of trouble, lying's okay. And if I only want to find love, a lesbian relationship is okay.
Because, hey: We can't measure up anyway. If you obey any commandments, you are taking away from the GLORY OF GOD! How DARE you?!
Please, as I asked before, Bible verses to back up your claims. Not taken out of context, but a verses that says illicit sex is the same as married sex.
God is Holy.
DeleteGod requires Man to be Holy.
Man can not be Holy, but can only sin continually.
Christ Jesus became man, remaining holy to reconcile those few God predestened as the Elect back to God.
That is the gospel. No where in our lives are we ever holy. Just Forgiven.
*******So. According to your theology, if someone pisses me off, I can kill them. If I find a REALLY sexy man, I can sleep with him, whether married or not. If I can stay out of trouble, lying's okay. And if I only want to find love, a lesbian relationship is okay.******
DeleteThis paragraph completely made my point.
Accirding to God, being pissed off at someone IS killing them. I am sure you have mentally murdered lots of people. I know I have.
How do you know someone is sexy unless you lust for them? This initial attraction doesn't all of a sudden change into something else biologically.
All sin is equal, whether you're gay, bi, straight, converted unconverted.
We sin. Everything we do is sinful. Only by the grace and power of God does He restrain us.
Ever heard of the term sucking and blowing?
Really? Thought you said everyone is free to comment on your blog whenever, and you would NEVER censor a comment? Shall I get the actual comment and post it?
ReplyDeleteGod does not look at us Heather, He sees Christ ALONE!
DeleteDo you understand the covenant relationship between God and man was shattered, destroyed, and only are we reconciled back to GOD through JESUS CHRIST ONLY?
If holiness is attainable for us while on this earth, then there is no need for Christ to return, since, you know, God's pleased with what we do.
Judism is where we get the idea that we can obey Gods commandments. Thanks Heather, you've given me an idea for another blog post.
ReplyDelete"God does not look at us Heather, He sees Christ ALONE!"
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say anything different?
"Do you understand the covenant relationship between God and man was shattered, destroyed, and only are we reconciled back to GOD through JESUS CHRIST ONLY?"
Yes. In fact, that's the exact thing I said.
"If holiness is attainable for us while on this earth, then there is no need for Christ to return, since, you know, God's pleased with what we do."
Again, I said that no, we can not attain heaven other than through Christ and what He did. We can NOT attain holiness through ourselves.
But if there is no burden on us, to at least TRY to be like Christ, (not to get us to heaven, not for any reward, but because we love God and want to glorify Him through our actions), Then seriously, what is stopping us from murdering? Lying? Cheating? Being sexually immoral? Nothing. Because it doesn't matter. We can do what we want, fulfill our every evil desire, 'cause God requires nothing of us.
This is flawed theology.
I'm not saying we strive to obey His commands to get to heaven, but because as much as we can we are to bring glory to Him. That is man's primary purpose. Will we fail? Of course. We're human, it's what we do.
Still doesn't leave us off the hook.
We strive to obey God's commands, knowing full well we will fail, but knowing also that Christs blood covers it all.
Are you teachable and willing to humble yourself and consider that the theology you are preaching is anti Christ?
DeleteDo you accept the fact that you and others of the Elect are in process? Including me.
Have you considered what that means?
Are you giving up on old ideas taught to you in order to progress in Christ?
How has GOD established His people to recieve Christs ministry?
SORRY!! HEATHER I ACCIDENTLY DELETED YOUR LAST COMMENT!
ReplyDeletePLEASE REPOST!
If we elevate anything we do, that is anti Christ. It is about Him, only, not about us.
ReplyDeleteDo we get the strength to not lie cheat steal etc from ourselves?
What does it mean when God gives people over to themselves?
This is my last comment, I plan on furthuring this idea into other blog posts, I think it's an important issue that needs to be talked out. We humans are very good at making our own distinctions.
I will reply to you if you would kindly repost your last comment though. Still getting used to this thing. :-)
It seems the biggest problem here is that people do not want to accept total depravity. We twist verses and convince ourselves that the institute of marriage cleanses sexual sins. This sounds like Marriage is another Christ.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to accept fault for doing something God has instituted, however man has polluted every thing God has created.
I would summarize the blog to say lust gives way to sex, even between married people. Yes lust is a sin, so the instigating of sex (lustful desire) is sinful, even in marriage.
Why does man desperately cling to the idea that they can DO something good?
What does Total Depravity mean to you?
Why do people want to elevate marriage to a sinless state, we are sinners, suck it up.
Praise God that He did it all because we are incapable of anything untainted by sin.
How easy it is to forget we live in a cursed world. God cursed it, nothing good exists on it.
DeleteEphesians 2:1-10
DeleteOnce you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil— the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.